I get a guest poster, yay!
You may have stuck around Tuesday and watched the face off between two of my readers in the comments section. If you did not, I suggest you go read them before reading this post.
Dark/Soth is one of my guild members and apparently is an elitist. Actually, I’m pretty sure he’s an elitist. =P
Anyway, I offered him some space to detail his thoughts about the whole thing and his post is going to tie in very nicely with a series I have planned for next week. No post on Friday, you’ll all be too hung over to read it anyway.
So without further ado, I introduce Dark/Soth:
…
Arioch has been badgering me to contribute something to her blog for a while now, and the recent discussion (argument?) with Koalabear21 from DotsandHots provided the perfect topic for me to talk about.
First, a little bit about me. I play a mage and a deathknight in Shadow Rising on Drak’Tharon. Dark/Soth is a combination of those two characters’ names. Feel free to look me up on the Armory. I highly doubt you will be impressed. Also, you won’t have to worry about me moving in here like Megan and Jong or Zaboo/Codex, but if invited back, I may drop in from time to time.
Alright, with the brief introduction out of the way, let’s get into what exactly an elitist is. In my opinion, an elitist is someone who min-maxes in every way, has every talent point perfectly applied to maximize efficiency, puts out near maximum dps for his gear and the content, and expects the same out of everyone else. In addition, elitists are typically jerks and think they are better than everyone. This is what I think an elitist is.
However, lately I am getting the impression that the bar for the elitist label has been significantly moved up, and now applies to anyone who expects people to perform slightly above average and takes issue with those that don’t. Or, to put it another way, an elitist is someone who expects people to perform at 60% of maximum potential.
A while back, I shared a story in the comments on one of Arioch’s posts of an experience I had with an enhancement shaman who had just dinged 80. This guy had 4-5 BoE level 80 epics, perfect spec, perfect gems, and all his gear was properly enchanted. He was able to put out 3200 dps on 10-man Sartharion. I was really impressed. When I talked to him about it, he linked me his achievement with the date and told me that before he got to 80, he had been doing level 78-80 normals, and had sought out the best BoEs he could so he’d be ready when he dinged 80. If I labeled his 3200 dps as maximum potential for a fresh level 80, even though I’m sure someone out there could get BiS gear and probably do more than that, 60% of “maximum potential” is 1920 dps.
The gist of my argument in the discussion I had with Koalabear21 is that a fresh 80 should be doing 2k dps, especially in heroics, or they should go back to lower leveled content. Koalabear feels that level of performance is above average, and is an unfair expectation of a fresh 80. I disagree. I think people pulling under that 60% of “maximum potential” in heroics are being carried, and if that opinion makes me an elitist, so be it.
DPS is not hard. It really isn’t. There are several sources all over the internet where you can find tips and guides to DPS. Elitist Jerks (I guess I am one) is a great site, with lengthy guides to nearly every class and spec out there. If you frequent a lot of blogs, which I’m assuming you do since you are reading this, I’m sure you are aware of blogs like Critical QQ for mages or Skeletonjack.com for DKs with lots of information to improve your game. I’m sure there are others out there for every class. You really do owe it to yourself and your potential group mates to improve your performance and carry your own weight. Not everyone, most definitely not me, wants to carry you to T9 gear.
…
So, agree? Disagree?
Homework assignment for the weekend!
Go pug, varying levels if you can, and report back what kind of damage you’re seeing. Be sure to note what the instance was, the level of the player, class, and any extenuating circumstances. Next week we’ll be looking at what average really is in the game world so we need lots of empirical data. Post your results here or email me at suprbrat@gmail.com.
clearcasting 
To be honest EJ is not such a great site for mage information anymore. It’s quite a mess to say the least. There have been tries to make summaries in the first post of different threads, but in several cases the post makers seem to have stop playing. The arcane thread is completely outdated. Sure, you can try to read 200 pages to catch up, but good luck on that!
The blogs are slightly better – still it’s just ONE person writing and not the result of a collective effort such as EJ was when it worked better. All in all I feel a bit sorry for new mages (or hey, even for myself :)). It isn’t all that easy to find solid basic advice these days.
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I have to agree with Larisa on this one. EJ needs some major reworking and not just with the mage forums. (I mostly play Boomkin but my mage is seeing some love lately too.) Having to sort through 200 pages of crap (of mostly outdated information or worse a specific question for one persons playstyle making it irrelevent) for some kernel of enlightenment is much too frustrating. 99% of the time the answer is check the spreadsheets! (there I saved you a trip to EJ) They need to repost the basics (hit ratings/ def caps/ haste caps/ gem priorities) they had for most of the classes back at the top (sticky?) Of course this probably won’t happen (they are elitist after all.) If I had the time maybe I would consult them more.
Ok so that shaman is definitely a min/maxer. Sounds like Dark/Soth is too. A good portion of my guild is too. Wishing for the majority of the WoW population to become this way is not realistic and takes some of the “fun” of the game away. I mean what else would these blogs talk about if not for the DK’s wearing spell plate, the Hunters wearing cloth/rolling on a tank weapon, or Ret pallies dpsing with a shield you find in Random Heroics?
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I may have gotten lucky Larisa, because the few guides I have checked out on EJ have actually been pretty good. The DK, Ret pally and Shadow priest guides are three that I’ve looked at just today and appear to be good information. Also, the “think tank” section compiles a lot of the data strung out in the lengthy threads. See http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t21302-theorycrafting_think_tank/
Groendell, I Googled balance druid dps spec 3.3 and the first hit led me to a blog with great info and a link back to the think-tank on EJ for more info. Also, I’m not wishing for the majority of the WoW population to be a min-maxer, I just want them to be 60% of that “maximum potential” before entering heroics.
You do make a great point about blogging about dks in spell plate and hunters wearing cloth. Those are fun to talk about. They were hilarious for me to talk about the first couple weeks after the patch. Then, I started to realize that I was running heroic level content with far too many of these fail players everyday, and it wasn’t funny anymore.
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I totally agree with Dark/Soth. I’ve seen hunters argue with me defending their 800 dps in a heroic when they weren’t using Steady Shot. Wouldn’t get out of the fire, died to soulstorm in Forge of Souls and then blamed the healer (me). So chock one up to the elitist column for me. Rather, chock one up for not having room temperature IQ.
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Unfortunately/fortunately for some, the new LFG system is built around carrying people through heroics with lower gear. The problem is, people are taking advantage of it.
I entered H UP with the first boss down only to realize 2 tanks and 1 healer had already left the group. I’m reading the chat while running to catch up to the group and one of the dps is complaining about how everyone keeps leaving because the group isn’t gear enough. I figure nothing of it because I’m decently geared and the new tank says it won’t be a problem.
Needless to say after the first wipe, I inspect the dps guy that was complaining. He’s running a Heroic in greens and the BOA chest and shoulders and he’s level 80…barely doing 1k dps. The other 2 dps, were the same.
There’s a fine line between taking advantage of the system and stepping into a heroic with proper gear and getting a little help.
Another issue now is the bar that some Elitists are holding people up to. 2500 WH rating for NAXX…GTFO! It’s those types of people that are ruining the game.
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I have a very strong opinion about dps being carried through heroics. In fact, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that poor dps queuing up for heroics contributes to the tank/healer shortage. For me, there is only so many times I want to be the top dps, as a tank, before it really starts to get to me.
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I’d have to disagree, and I’m a bit of an elitist. I expect about 1200 in heroics for a fresh 80 in quest greens and blues, and I’m judging that based on not only I but most everyone was pulling back when I first turned 80 (when Naxx was still the hot new raid).
Now granted, I am a shadowpriest, and back then, spriests were the lulz. Even my ret pally friend, who was near the top end of the dps scales based on everyone I grouped with, was only pulling about 1600 right off the bat. We slowly worked on Heroic UK until we could pull enough to down Anomalous in H Nexus, then we worked our way up from there to the harder heroics.
But nowadays, it is definitely easier to get geared up faster, perhaps preventing people from fully getting used to their class/spec at 80 before being thrown into raids. I didn’t go to Naxx until almost a month after I hit 80 because I wasn’t “ready” with mostly purples. I’d expect ToC is the same, due to the gear you can get with Triumph emblems.
Fresh 80, though? 2k dps just starting out? I dunno … I’d really have to disagree, I am mostly sure that I’ve never seen a very fresh 80 pull that sort of dps.
Then again, I’m pulling 1400dps on my level 72 ret paladin now …
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I remember seeing 1500 being the base for heroic dps when heroics were actually relevant. Now that will obviously vary by class and skill and the ability to not stand in stuff but I don’t have a problem with carrying one or two people once in a while and I ran a H Cos with a healer who was in a lot of greens in his first heroic but we survived and even got the drake so it worked out alright. I do understand not wanting to carry a ton of people though and if people are not even trying then thats what the vote to kick feature is for or you can leave and queue up for a new dungeon
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First of all thank you to everyone that blogs about WoW. While in Iraq this is how I get my laughs or just info about the game since I left in the middle of Ulduar.
I have to agree with both of you. When I leveled my mage I was in full T6 and other BiS gear from BC so I was doing over 2k already with my mage when Wrath hit. I was the 2nd mage to hit 80 and as soon as there were 5 people that were 80, off to Heroics. Then I was still in T6 gear with maybe one or two upgrades and at 80 I was only doing 2.4k. So from 70-80 I only went up 400 dps.
Now with my Shaman as soon as I hit 80 I was only able to get about 1800 dps and was in full quest blues. So I can see both sides of the spectrum.
With this whole GearScore thing I keep reading about I think I’m going to be screwed when I leave Iraq and head home to start playing again. We’ll just have to wait and see what happens when I go “LFG’s” and my avg iLvL is 210… I pull 3k most of the time with both my mage and shaman but this damn GearScore isn’t going to see that..Shit by the time I get home people will laugh at 3k when most casual raiders will pull 7-8k DPS.
Bottom line, I see both sides.
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[…] over at Clearcasting during this post in the comments section. Today Arioch had Dark post his viewpoint. Instead of posting a really long comment I am going to utilize this blog to reply to his post. […]
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Hmmm. Soth and Koalabear both make great points. I know I am still a “noob healer” when it comes to this game. I mind and do not mind DPS who only do 1500 or so in a heroic. I understand when 1st hitting 80 etc it does take time for their DPS to rise, but at the sametime…I do not understand how they could not take the time to do a little research or a little farming (EJ, tankspot, plusheal, and numerous blogs to get some info and hints).
I guess this stems back to my FFXI playing days….if you dont have the right gear before starting something…dont level to you get it and do not even think about starting ANY endgame.
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There’s a difference between being an elitist and a jerk. You can be elitist without being a jerk and you can be a jerk without being an elitist.
And you can be an Elitist Jerk.
But, I’d rather have someone who is nice and knows how not to stand in the fire and does less dps than the idiot who does great dps, but doesn’t know to move or how to control aggro, dps’ the wrong target etc.
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First off, shoutout to Orange, a fellow FFXIer!
{/Hello}{Nice to meet you!}
Moving on…
—-
Hmn… Well it’s a complex issue, but I have the advantage of not caring very much.
While DPS <1k will raise my eyebrows a bit and possibly get me to check someone's gear or talents or their ability usage out of morbid curiosity, and maybe I'll have a chuckle in /G or vent about it.. That's really the extent that I give a damn. If it's a class I know how to play maybe I'll /w a few suggestions and if they seem receptive do a little more tutoring if I can.
====BEGIN OPINION=======
But really. These are people you'll be playing with for ~20 minutes and then will probably never see again. They aren't worth undue consideration, and they aren't going to ruin my night if they're underpar.
Of course I DO start to mind if someone causes a group wipe or three due to a bad case of stupid, and Serious Business Raids are a different story or course. But for your average H-pug, Ehh. Wear a santa hat and swing a fishing pole for all the damn I give, really, just don't get anyone killed.
Hell, low DPS groups can be fun at times. Earlier this year I was ramming groups through the Dark Knight fight through sheer force of Rogueish DPS and awesomeness. (TotT+AR+FoK Phase 2 to collect Ghouls on the tank, Phase 3 BF+KS(+speed potion if needed), CoS the Mark if you get it) It was fun. ..Well for me, anyway, your mileage may vary, but I get a kick out of being able to use my abilities to their fullest and actually have a measurable impact on the fight.
Of course high DPS groups are fun too, completely ruining the ass of a boss in ~20 seconds is fine as well. ;) I was in a group earlier with this week with a 45K health tank all ~4K DPSers. I look over to my left and the healer is meleeing next to me in tree form as no healing was necessary. Put up a solid 32 DPS as well. ;)
In short, I guess the only person whose performance I am really concerned with is my own. In my own selfish way I to like being on top of the meters, and if I'm not then I look at whoever beat me (most commonly an Ele shammy or arcane mage) and see what they were doing. (Remember to check total damage as well, there are some interrresting results to be found there, occasionally)
But really, Everyone's there to have fun. (presumably, anyway) I have fun by playing my class as effectively as I can, and making walls of numbers appear on my screen.. I get a secret, evil thrill from matching or exceeding the damage of people with higher gearscores than mine.
I like playing my class as effectively as I am able, but I don't expect that of every person I meet. Everyone's there to have fun (again presumably, in some groups it's hard to tell -_-) but for every minmaxer there's probably double the number of people who are playing so they'll have something to do with their friends or family, supercasuals, 12-year-olds, and people who get off work and just want to spend a quiet hour or two beating the shit out of some iron dwarves. You can't control these people, so don't sweat it.
So.. eh.. Just roll with it, and try to keep everything in perspective.
It's all fun and games, right? ;)
… But if they're screwing up your raid, well then let the bitching commence, I highly endorse that. ;)
=====END OPINION=====
Pertinent to this thread:
Elitist Jerks can be hit or miss with regards to class info. Some of their writeups are godawful, and some are fantastic (check out their prot pally manual) but at least their info is vetted.
——–
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Just to add to the conversation, I’ve never initiated a group kick on a low dps, or dissed anyone in the party for poor dps. The only times I’ve actually said anything about anyone’s dps or performance to the group was if they criticize me in anyway, criticize the healer, or do something completely stupid. Usually, if I trash talk crappy dps, its always in guild or whispers to my friends.
The extent of comments I make if none of the above happen is usually (after the run is over), “sigh, i’m top dps as the tank, again. thanks for run, cya.”
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Dark,
IMHO, you may have set the bar a little high assuming a 3200DPS max. Yes, it’s possible. But, let’s consider the source: Someone outfitted in “4-5 level 80 epics, perfect spec, perfect gems, and all his gear properly enchanted.” This spells mega gold and mega help. It is certainly possible today to get L80 BoE epics that drop from recipies in U. If you have to buy them on the AH, or even the recipies, expect to pay through the nose. The same with epic gems. This means that someone, either his alt, or his guild, has a large amount of disposable income in order to so outfit him. Most newly dinged level 80’s aren’t going to have that type of banking – and certainly not those who are first on a server. While it is possible to find the “perfect” spec, not every cookie-cutter spec works for everyone. Latency issues might well make the difference in 200-300 dps in L80 blues alone.
For you to expect 60% of this total borders on the absurd. In fact, for someone new to L80, 2300 DPS would be an oustanding total, and would still require a huge investment in grinding and time, along with saving every penny along the way to spend on enchants and gold, along with quite a bit of study into playing a role properly that’s just changed dramatically. What’s 60% of 2300? 1380DPS. (Come to think of that, it’s right in the middle of the 1-1.5K range, isn’t it…)
Sorry if I’ve stepped on anyone’s toes, but I just couldn’t wait to read other responses before getting this out.
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Rustbeard,
I encountered the enhancement shaman back in 3.1. Ulduar was endgame back then. I don’t remember if the BoE’s he had were from Ulduar patterns or simply from maxed out professions and dungeon/naxx drops. Also, I get what you are saying, and I still feel that a player incapable of doing 2k should be in normals. Note that no player is incapable of doing 2k dps at level 80, even in blues and greens. Its all about skill. I intend to prove my theory when I hit 80 on my paladin. Also, don’t forget that people were doing 2k in the Sunwell back at level 70. So, if an exceptional top 3% player can hit 2k at level 70, I don’t think 2k is too much to ask for a slightly above the median (60% of max) player at level 80. If you aren’t there yet, go cut your teeth on some normals, work on some faction rep, grind the AH and get better blues and purples, then join the heroic level content.
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I can see where dark is coming from though. many of the 200 BOE epics are not too bad.
For example, for a priest – the moonshroud robe is only about 600-700 (server depending). faces of doom 200-450. Moonshroud gloves, spellweave gloves 200-400, 4 right there that are not too expensive imo.
Especially if lvling a new character and picking 2 gathering professions having enough money prior to 80 to getting those items isnt too bad.
But also i see where if one is changing gear a lot at that lvl, there is no need to gem for epic etc. Waste of money imo. (But if not purposely enchanting gemming cause lazy, or cause changing gear often…that is something to complain about.an uncommon gem is what 2g or something?)
One complaint i do have about WoW is its constant gear upgrades…..that is kinda strange for me lol. Many of the endgame gear from FFXI’s 1st expansion (Rise of the Zilart) is still valid today, and is still sought after.
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I’ll comment about this later, but right now cause I have to go get drunk right now. Just wanted to say Happy New Year to Arioch, and to you Dark.
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Thanks! Happy New Year to you as well.
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Hmmm…if my memory serves me correctly…
Regarding “fresh” 80 dps; Back when Naxx was in full swing, the unofficial dps median for a heroic was 1200-1300 for a player in quest blues. Any more than that, and the player was deemed slightly above the curve.
4-5 patches later, however, I’m interested in seeing the overall effect of talent changes and secondary stat changes would alter that curve now.
As a DK, for example, the nerf to SS and FS alone is enough to drop a fresh 80’s dps (from then to now) 150-200 dps (assuming). I’m definitely no expert on other classes, but as talent synergy changes, new curves need to be looked at.
I personally, would get 5 guildies, replace all epics w/ AH bought greens, and run into a few heroics to see whats up….that actually sounds like fun.
Ok, ok–I’m doing it tonight. Keep an eye out for a post this weekend =)
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That is an awesome idea. I fully intend to document in detail my experience on my pally when I hit level 80 and see what I can do.
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“In my opinion, an elitist is someone who min-maxes in every way, has every talent point perfectly applied to maximize efficiency, puts out near maximum dps for his gear and the content, and expects the same out of everyone else. In addition, elitists are typically jerks and think they are better than everyone. This is what I think an elitist is.”
I can live with that explanation, most of it covers myself, I try not to be too much of an asshole but I wont spoonfeed players information on how to play Mage (which my main is), and I will not put up with anyone under 2k dps in heroics, 3.5k dps in 10 mans and 4k dps in 25 mans.
Now those numbers seem more than reasonable to me, I was getting 4-5k when I first hit 80 and that was mostly in level 70 gear from SSC/TK and Hyjal/BT, there is just no excuse except for laziness for anyone to be lower than those benchmarks, even with a freshly leveled toon.
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hmmmm, still hungover, these comments pages need an edit option.
“I try not to be too much of an asshole but I wont spoonfeed players information on how to play Mage (which my main is),”
By that I mean that I’ll help people with a simple question if I have time and they are polite (I get a fair few /tell’s from people asking about mages, one downside to playing in a server first guild), if they have any follow up questions I’ll direct them to a relevant theorycraft resource, EJ, RAWR, etc. Most of the time people will find the bit of info they actually wanted, and then keep reading, which in turn reduces the amount of times I need to reply to /tell’s from the same person.
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I know that the chances for this reply to be read are slim to none after 20 other posts, but here it goes anyway (I I have posted at Dot’s and Hots too).
I want to tell you a story about two players. Both of them have been playing since Vanilla days. Both of them have many, many alts, have gone through numerous servers and guilds, and have played most of relevant content. They play similar hours (none of them is “casual”). They are even friends in RL, and spend much time discussing the mechanics of the game.
Now, the first player (lets call him Player A), has the following progression: he creates a toon on character page, levels it in 24 hours or something silly like that, dings 80 and goes … to normal instance (shocking, isn’t it?). After a few of those, where he does 2,5k dps in quest rewards, he proceeds to heroics. I have been in VoA raid with his newest warlock (green trinkets were to be had on the toon at that point), where he pulled 4,5k dps and came out third.
The second player (Player B), does it similarly concerning progression, has the same amount of experience in game, has much more gold at his disposal in game (more patience with daily quests), and barely breaks 3 k dps wearing ilevel 245 epics on his latest toon (DK).
I have played with both of them. Player A was never carried. Player B is ALWAYS carried, even after 5 years of playing.
Player A does his research and presses his buttons in correct order. Player B watches TV while playing, and then whines how his current class is crappy and nerfed. Go figure.
I know it is a fallacy to make a scientific conclusion based on an example of two people, but they do clearly show that it’s about the willingness to improve, about skill (gasp), and about just plain not being lazy.
Me? I play a healer :D
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You aren’t supposed to say it takes skill to do 2.5k in greens! These people want you to comment that 2.5k is the ridiculous anomaly and 1300 is perfectly acceptable. No one wants to be told they can be better with a tiny bit of work, everyone wants to be told their mediocrity is ok.
/wink
Thanks for the comment, I really appreciate it.
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[…] in turn spawned a response from an apparent elitist and triggered a rebuttal over at Dots & […]
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I don’t mind carrying people so long as they’re trying. I would ideally like to see ppl around the 1.5k mark, but that isn’t always the case. The reason I say this is because instead of running heroics, people should consider running the normal ICC 5mans which provide far better gear, badges, and rep. From there it’s only a matter of time before they’re more than geared enough.
I’ve seen the total opposite situation where a warlock had reasonable gear, but could not break 1k dps because he kept trying to use a raid boss rotation when the other dps are blowing mobs out of their socks. In that particular run, two of us were at 6k dps for the entire run, and he insisted on opening with Agony and Corruption. He would’ve been better off throwing out seeds and letting us detonate them. He probably would’ve done better in another group, but just not that one
So as much as I’d like to see good dps, I’ll settle for someone with “room temperature IQ”. (Had to borrow that from Kaldreth.)
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It’s like football: some play it for the goals, some for their fitness and many for the beer. The moments you meet all three types in one room or even one person are very rare.
Just let’em play their game and try to have fun myself. At the moment I try hard to catch up with carried dds on my healer. ~750dps while still overhealing for ~50% @ gearscore around 4700.
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Depends on the instance, the attitude of the person and just how bad they are. Every DPS toon that I have hit 80 with has been able to put out 2k plus that day. I think this is acceptable. I also dont mind toons with absolutely crap gear doing 1500-1900 dps. When you start falling into the 1k rang…..you should be doing BC content…because that is when 1k dps was decent. I am not elitist, I just expect people to not be douchebags and want to be completly carried.
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“I am not elitist, I just expect people to not be douchebags and want to be completly carried.”
I felt the same way before this whole discussion started, but now its clear that there is a difference between the way I view performance and what I classify as “carried”, then most player’s views.
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[…] this make me an elitest – oh the blogs abound with this topic here of late. (Here and Here and Here and Here and well, you get the picture) I don’t think it makes me a jerk to […]
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[…] @My Name is Dark/Soth […]
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Ugh…don’t have time to read all the comments but wanted to make a comment from a healers perspective. I don’t think a fresh 80 has has to be pulling better than 2k dps but I also don’t think that you should be running high end heroics if you are not. The longer it takes to down something the more mana is expended so it’s killer on your healer if everyone in the group is doing less than 2K dps. That being said, I see it happen all the time and I make it through. It’s just irritating. I do think when you hit 80 if you are doing less than 1K dps…you have issues. I could push that before I even knew what a ‘rotation’ was back when I was running around in blues and crafted epics.
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This is raven btw…if anyone cares.
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It’s ok. We don’t. J/k ;)
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[…] looked at the comments that started it all, the Apparent Elitist POV, the Game, the Community, Another […]
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[…] Prisoner. With double heals, it basically amounts to four-manning it. Now, there has been a lot of discussion lately about how much dps a person at this gear level should be able to do in heroics. I’m […]
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[…] on Arioch’s Clearcasting, starting in the comments of OK in UK, spawning a guest post by Dark/Soth and a rebuttal on DotsandHots which then lead to baseball analogies by Arioch, and even […]
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[…] trend started with the comments on Arioch’s post last Tuesday. The discussion was between the “apparently elitist” Dark/Soth and the “apparently anti-elitist” koalabear, who wrote their follow-up and rebuttal […]
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I think 2K is kinda high for some fresh 80’s in quest blues/greens unless your a godlike paladin heh. I don’t mind carrying DPS a little. If peoples dps is ridiculously low like <1000 then it starts effecting the party but if I am doing 3-4K and someone is doing 1300 I do not get bent out of shape.
Before LFG it was mostly guild runs for me and I would take the 1K guy and look at his armory page and try and help with rotation if he was a class I knew. Obviously this does not apply to LFG.
I guess for myself I would rather carry the stranger and do the run then argue about it or make some 11yr old kid sad.
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[…] My Name is Dark/Soth, and Apparently I Am an Elitist […]
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[…] nice people that also happen to be good at playing their class. We are not elitists (except maybe Dark/Soth), but we do take our raiding seriously. We enjoy the time we spend together, working together as a […]
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