A Rogue’s Wrath

I’m not really looking for any advice on this, just want to record the incident. I know I made the right decision for the raid and that was obvious when we pulled it off and made the kill.

Maybe someone is curious about what goes through the mind of a raid leader trying to put together a raid. It’s like Tetris, only you don’t know if you’ve rotated the right pieces until you wipe or loot.

So sometime last week I put a 10-man VoA/Ony raid on the calendar.

I knew there was going to be a decent amount of interest in the raid (more accepts than I could accomodate) and I knew there was going to be a couple people that responded that would need to be carried.

Now, I do not have an issue bringing lesser-geared/experienced folks along if the raid can handle it and we have room. Boosting people’s gear gets them into the new content faster so they can strut their stuff.

But Ony is still new for us, nowhere near on farm as was demonstrated Tuesday night when 10 of our best went in and got thoroughly spanked. Hard. They gave up after 6-7 wipes, I lost track in vent.

I wanted to open the invitation to more than just the progression raiders since Wednesday was previously an off night for progression and I wasn’t sure what type of attendance I could expect from them.

To cover myself if (when) I had to make some judgement calls, the invite stated “Priority will be given to people that accept early and active raiders.”

I ended up with the following accepts:

  • Mage – (me) 4-5k DPS
  • Rogue #1 – fresh 80 (first toon), cracking 2k, no raid experience
  • Hunter – active raider, minimum 4k DPS
  • Paladin #1 – prot/ret spec and not terribly good at either
  • Warlock – has not been logged on regularly for quite some time, has recently set foot in Ulduar, last I saw was hitting maybe 2.5K
  • Paladin #2 – holy/ret spec, raid experience through Ulduar and Trial of the Crusader, better geared and performance in holy spec
  • DK #1 – tank/DPS spec, awesome tank and does a lot of our MT stuff
  • Rogue #2 – can count on him for 5k+ almost every time
  • Paladin #3 – holy spec, recently returned to the guild after leaving abruptly
  • Shaman #1 – ele spec, cracking 3k regularly
  • Druid #1 – feral/resto specs, raids regularly with us as resto
  • Warrior or Priest – tank or healer, tank is geared in part blues but is def capped and knows how to use cool downs, lots of raiding experience and is working towards being one of our primary tanks
  • Shaman #2 – resto/ele, raids regularly as resto
  • Druid #2 – boomkin, raids with 4-5k+ DPS
  • DK #2 – DPS, relative newcomer to the guild, pretty sure he’s in the 4k+ range.

My goal was to try to keep class duplication to a minimum as much of the loot in both VoA and Ony is class specific while still putting together a functional raid that would see the loot actually drop.

Log on and see what’s available.

DK #1 had contacted me earlier in the day to let me know there was a daycare situation and he would be 15-20 minutes late.

Need tanks first. I had DK #1, pally #1, and the warrior. I knew I wanted the DK as my MT. Ony will chew through a raid without a strong tank. My preference was for the warrior as the OT. I wanted someone that could break out of fear on p3 without outside help if need be. His experience and performance, even significantly undergeared compared to the pally tank, was desirable as well. I kept the option open of having the pally though, as I did want fire aura in the raid somehow. So my tank choices are DK as MT, prefer warrior as OT but will accept the pally as OT if need be.

On to healers. We wanted to try and 2-heal this but had to keep in mind that we might need to go with 3. The resto shaman was a shoo-in for strength of heals and fear totem. The resto druid was also in for quality of heals and getting a battle res if needed. I went with paladin #2 as my “go DPS until we decide we need you to heal” healer. His ret isn’t all that and a bag of chips, but I would get fire aura. Getting a paladin here cut into the chances pally #1 had of getting into the raid.

That left 5 spots for DPS. I wanted at least 3 ranged, preferably 4. We have had problems in the past getting Ony to drop back down from p2 in a timely manner.

I got to go since I was the one that organized it. Leadership (and being the only active raiding mage in the guild) has its perks.

Rogue #2 can kill whelps like no one’s FoKing business. He’s broken 10k DPS on this fight.

Shaman #2 – I wanted a second tremor totem (stupid thing is party-only) and he can provide it with ranged DPS.

Hunter – Very reliable DPS and some class diversity, as well as being ranged.

One spot left.

Turns out pally #1 wasn’t logged in so warrior got OT spot no contest. Warlock wasn’t logged in. Didn’t need a second holy pally in the raid so pally #3 was out (didn’t see if he was logged on, may have been on an alt). DK #2 wasn’t logged on.

That left me with rogue #1 and druid #2.

This means my choice for a fight that still roflstomps us on occasion was:

  • New rogue – melee only, can help with whelps on p2, but can’t help on Ony or the dragonkin adds, roughly 2k DPS with familiar content
  • Experienced boomkin – ranged DPS that can take down Ony, dragonkin and whelps, and at least 2k more DPS even on unfamiliar content

Either choice was going to duplicate a class. The druid offered an additional battle res, a raid-wide crit buff, and wouldn’t necessarily be rolling on the same gear as the other druid.

I went with the druid.

I put out an explanation in guild chat that I had too many accepts so I had to be a bit choosy about who got to go, but it didn’t mean that we didn’t like you if you didn’t get to go this time.

VoA went down like smooth liquor. We went “backwards” and started at Archavon after clearing trash to give our MT a few more minutes to show up. Our resto shaman solo-healed it while the resto druid went bear and tanked it with the warrior. DK logged in just in time for Emalon and Koralon.

Priest gear. No priest. Warlock gear. No warlock.

The warrior got a piece, the ele shaman got a piece of PvP gear, the paladin got a PvP piece, and the hunter got T9 legs.

On to Ony!

First attempt: The hunter discovers that Ony’s tail whip has a much larger range than originally believed. Right into the whelp cave! 50 DKP minus! There were many whelps and we did not handle it.

Second attempt: The healers were running in just a bit too close to the tank and ate a swipe cleave right off the bat. I jumped up and down in front of Ony saying “Eat me!”

Third attempt we did much better, but there was a little too much damage going around. Made it to phase 3, but we hadn’t quite finished off the whelps so they finished us. Took a look at recount and decided that losing the paladin’s DPS would be far outweighed by getting the extra heals in there.

Forth and final: We were like a well-oiled machine.

Since we loot council, I had already made the call that if one of the tanks got lucky and got a helm drop then Ony’s head would go to the other for the tanking trinket quest reward. If neither got it, it was going to the DK as seniority in tanking.

The warrior helm did drop so the DK got to lug a dragon head back to Orgrimmar. The warrior is next in line for the head and then we’ll move to any healers interested in the caster ring. It’s going to be ages before I get my hands on that dragon head.

A really nice gun dropped but the hunter already had it and the rogue had something just as good so we also passed the gun to the warrior.

Contents of the gem bag (two cardinal rubies) went into the guild bank and it was open roll for the bag.

I rolled a 1.


Everyone was happy that we got her down and recovered from the whooping she had laid on them the night before (I think it was because they didn’t have me /flex).

And then I get the whisper.

“got a sec?”

It’s the rogue that didn’t get to go.

“im trying not to, but im feeling somewhat annoyed that i got passed over for the raid…what’s the invite for?”

I got more accepts than we had spots, since the content isn’t on farm I had to go with members that could pull more damage.

“i *didnt* do some stuff tonite so that i could go to something that I was asked to sign up for”
“u took [warrior] in almost full blues ”

He’s a tank.
I also have to watch raid composition.

“tanks need gear, maybe moreso than rogs”

He has a lot more in game experience than you do.

(missing part of conversation here, there was discussion that “accept” on the calendar is an indication of availability, not a guaranteed spot when raid composition is being taken into consideration)

We wiped 4 times with experienced players, I needed more ranged than DPS
You’ll notice in the description that I said priority would be given to early accepters and active raiders.
Rogues just don’t have as many options in the Ony fight.

“i was one of those and intent to be the other too”

But you’re not quite to the other yet, keep signing up for [raid leader]’s raids
If I had needed more melee DPS I would have taken you
But there’s a huge part of the fight that has to be handled by the ranged.

“i know. thats fine.”

We’ll run Ony again next week.

“im not holding my breath”

I imagine we’ll be running Ony every week for quite some time.
Ask [raid leader] if he would be willing to lead an Ony raid.
I only have 1 80 so I can only lead it once.

“whatever, i said my piece. that whole situation is annoying. im going to log for the night and take it easy.”

[rogue] has logged out.

If I could take everyone to a raid, I would.

But I can’t.

And when I lead a raid (which isn’t very often because of shit like this) I have to make decisions that will support the success of the group.

Did I like having to choose between the rogue and the druid?

Hell no.

I know the rogue is a nice guy and he’s been working really hard to improve his character.

But nice and trying don’t always cut it.

Looking at the parse, if I had taken him instead of the druid, I would have lost at *least* 3k DPS. That would have been over 1 million damage over the course of the fight, including adds, that’s about 11% of the total damage we did. Same thing if I had swapped the other rogue with him or even me. Swapping the shaman out wasn’t a possibility because I wanted that second tremor totem.

So the next time you get passed over for a raid, don’t get your panties in a bunch.

It isn’t always about you, sometimes it’s about fitting that last “L” shaped piece into the Tetris block.

No one likes being left out but no likes failing repeatedly with everyone looking over their shoulders at the dead weight either.

If you don’t like it, lead your own damned raids.

12 comments on “A Rogue’s Wrath

  1. Holdor says:

    great writing,

    there have to be decission to be made. I probalbly have decided the same way. But keep in mind a good rogue can be a wonder.

    I just want to point out. Two shamans look like overkill for me. Have the tank and some healers safe from fear is by far enogh. Running a bit arround as a DPS is even a fun part.

    More important than the number of DPS would be to me, will the player stick with the raid for a long time. If yes, get him some loot.



  2. pitrelli says:

    Why ask him to sign up if you werent going to use him? When I previously organised raids back in the ol’ days I would have set spots for classes and it was first come first served, whether or not we were always successful was another thing but it did give people the opportunity to experience and learn from the content. I value friendship and happy guild members over the latest shiny purple but meh that may just be me.

    Nice article anyway and it is interesting to see it from your perspective. My own is neither of you is right or wrong but I do feel like he has a right to be aggrieved.


  3. jong says:

    Yeah, great writing. That’s all.


  4. Darraxus says:

    The Rogue was probably invited as a backup. Usually when you send out an invite, you send it in mass form. Just because you are invited doesnt mean you are in. I would have taken the boomkin as well.


  5. Raven says:

    Rogues are awesome! Unless they are horde and in a bg. Damn horde! :p. (I know..unrelated…w/e)

    Awesome bit…I’ll keep this all in mind if I’m ever a raid leader. (roflmfao!) Seriously though…good post.


  6. […] So I was going to write something else entirely today then I read the update over at Clearcasting (https://clearcasting.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/a-rogues-wrath/) and I wanted to give my […]


  7. I can totally relate to this. If I get time today I’m going to post about our “progression raid” that we finally put together and rofflestomped a couple bosses we’d never even been to in Ulduar.

    Like you said, I don’t have a problem with people wanting to raid if they aren’t completely geared out. It’s just that some raids require a bit more gear and experience and, let’s just be honest, skill.

    We dragged a fairly fresh 80 through our first Onyxia run. It was a druid healer. We 2-healed the encounter. The thing is, everyone other than him was pretty solid. Our tanks are amazingly skilled and highly geared. You can lose some heals when you’ve got great tanks on Ony.

    I’m a little surprised your tank in blues didn’t present more of a problem. We went in for a second Ony raid in the same week with 2 lesser geared tanks and failed miserably.

    One question though, why couldn’t the rogue help on the dragonkin? As long as they leave when the blast wave is being wound up, shouldn’t be a problem. In fact, our strategy was for the pally to get to the spot where the whelps converge while I stand on him and tank the dragonkin. Our tanks ate the blast wave while the melee just got out of dodge.

    Worked like a charm.


  8. Geeni says:

    pitrelli, really? “Why ask him to sign up?” The entire thought process is outlined and that’s your question??

    He wasn’t personally invited; every potentially eligible person was invited. Notice all those people who accepted and then weren’t online? A RL needs to cast a wide net, presuming that some people are going to let them down (particularly for a raid like this one, outside the normal schedule).

    When it came down to it, he was the one person who got bumped, for that whole laundry list of reasons — some of which had nothing to do with him, and none of which were a personal insult. It’s fine to be hurt, it’s fine to whisper the RL afterward to ask about the selection process. (Or earlier to politely ask if you can be on standby!) But to continue to blatantly not listen when she provides her reasons and rationales, and blow her off when she states what you can do to get invited the next time? That is disrespectful of the time and difficult decision making she put into making this raid happen. Being ungrateful and making the RL’s job harder is the #1 way to either 1) never get invited again, or 2) make sure the RL drops out of leading entirely.


  9. Elysiane says:

    Extremely well written, and I very much agree with the sentiment.


  10. Arioch said, “Rogue and dragonkin – I’ll have a more elaborate answer for you next week. For now, let me just say that I don’t think we are always doing our friends and guildmates a favor when we rush them through content to be with us.”

    I think you misunderstood me. I wasn’t questioning why that particular rogue couldn’t help with the dragonkin. I was just commenting on you saying a rogue (not that particular rogue) couldn’t help on the dragonkin.

    I agree, we aren’t doing favors dragging people through content they aren’t ready for. In fact, my latest post somewhat addresses that very issue.


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s