So that’s what you do all day?

I’m on a project at work which is sucking up huge parts of my time and what’s left of my soul.

But I do get a few moments here and there to try and keep on top of things.

Dark/Soth helps keep me sane (less insane?) by providing stimulating debate.

The following is taken from an email conversation we had the other day. I pulled out a name or two to protect the so-called innocent. (No, it’s no one that reads the blog. I think. But it’s definitely not you, Del, since you always seem to think I’m blaming you. Go read this post, your comment yesterday made me think of it again.)

Dark/Soth

Turned off xp and ran Nexus on Fanta. Did 1568 dps overall. Personal Best. [Edit: Fanta is his ret pally project, level 70 or so at the time of this email.]

Earlier in the night, ran heroic Violet Hold on Soth with a hunter that did 1175.

You have previously said that 1k is the minimum for heroics and implied that 1k is average for fresh 80.

What explanation can you provide for a level 71 dps beating a level 80 dps?

If you asked in trade chat, who can do more dps? An exceptional level 71, or an average fresh level 80, what would be the answer and why?
Are you still comfortable with the 1k threshold?

Please note that in the above comments and questions, I have not advocated any position or provided any personal opinion about anything.

Arioch

lol, just seeking to stir some intellectual debate in the morning?

It is my belief that a fresh group of 80s can eventually mangle their way through a Heroic with the DPS at the 1k mark. Will it be nice? No, it will be ugly, probably result in a wipe or two and the healer will be out of mana most of the run. But it is possible and would present a challenge.

And by fresh, I am referring to a first-time 80, casual player as well.

Quick glimpse at your armory shows me a few enchants and some gems. What’s this? You didn’t gem for the MP5 in your pants?
Oh, that’s because you know that you can ignore the gem color slot and gem for what you know to be the better stat. New players seriously don’t know this. Once they figure out how to get gems they will doggedly fill the slot with the appropriate color, even if the bonus was completely useless. You are appropriately geared for your class and spec and have made educated decisions about your spec and rotation.

Asking anything in trade chat is useless. I watched a conversation the other day regarding the best stat for feral kitties. Spirit was on top, followed by block and spellpower.

As to which can do more damage, I would pin the answer on the player. I imagine when my mom is at level 80 (if she ever gets there) she might be breaking 600 DPS. Might. Would not surprise me in the least if she was not.

I’m still comfortable with the 1k threshold.
Would I like it to be higher? Yes.
But for every Dark/Soth there are probably 1-2 players of my skill/commitment, 3-4 of [player]’s, and at least 1 of my mom’s.

Dark/Soth

Trying to stir some debate by framing the conversation in a way that doesn’t make me look like a jerk. Its hard, but I’m trying. =p

If nothing else, this should further demonstrate that skill accounts for a considerably larger portion of your dps than the gear. Its significant. Much more significant than I would of originally thought. It also shows that heroic 5-mans are tuned very, very low. Assuming there is a theoretical maximum skill level obtainable in the game, I’d estimate you could successfully complete a heroic 5-man at 30%-40% of that maximum level. If you defined that level by most pre-set video game difficulty levels, it would be “easy” or “beginner”.

Why do you think Blizzard made Wrath 5-mans so much easier than Burning Crusade 5-mans?

Arioch

Because Blizzard needs money to stay afloat.

I don’t know what the stats are for people that got to complete “end game” back when that was BT and SSC and such, but I’ve never seen a number thrown around that was higher than 15%. I’ve seen some numbers as low as 2% for killing Illidan back when it was current.

So that’s 85%+ of the player base paying the same amount of money and not getting to see the end of a game.

If this were a single-player game it wouldn’t be a problem. The average player would for one, not be paying a monthly subscription, and two could just toss the game back on the shelf or get cheat codes to see the end.

But it’s an MMO. So they are paying $15 a month and looking at all the other people in the pretty purple shinies.

Here’s where human nature gets ugly and Blizzard saw this at the end of BC.

People don’t understand the difference between being granted access to content and being entitled to see content. And I have a sneaking suspicion that this is an American thing, because this doesn’t happen in the foreign MMO market. [Edit: Or if it does, I’ve not heard about it. If this is more universal, please share your experiences.]

The subscription fee is the ticket to enter Azeroth. It is not the “cut to the head of the line, get into raids” ticket. But a sizable portion of the population, the more casual portion, feel that their $15 entitles them to the same level of content and gear as the skilled players have earned. [Edit: Our definition for casual is low commitment.]

It’s roughly like thinking that paying the X-Box live subscription means you “earn” a top rating in Halo. Why there is a disparity between how the two subscription services are viewed, I don’t know. I’m going to guess it’s because WoW is an RPG, not a RTS or FPS so people think that the rules of skill and competency somehow don’t apply.

Blizzard wants to keep WoW going. I get the sense that the developers actually have a passion for the game and the world they have created. But that don’t pay the bills. So they have to appease the masses. And this means having more “entry-level” content available for the masses. There is also the secondary issue of being able to share the story, it is an RPG after all.

But at the same time, they don’t want to alienate the hardcores and skilled players so keep introducing the next level via heroic versions and hard modes.

And so the cycle starts again.

Normal mode – everyone can do. Everyone gets the story.

Skilled players want challenge.

Heroic introduced. Same story, better gear.

Skilled players defeat heroic and get better loot.

“Entitled” player sees better loot and demands equal loot.

Heroics are nerfed so casuals can get loot.

Skilled players want challenge and recognition for better performance.

Next level of heroic introduced.

See where it goes?

If WoW were a Korean MMO, I don’t think this would be an issue. The understanding would be there amongst all players that skill gets you to the end, that it is an EARNED right not a purchased privilege.

Dark/Soth

All very good points, and I can’t disagree with any of them. I may not like the rationale, but the rationale is correct.

I want to take this discussion to another level.

Up to this point, I have only focused the conversation on the dps. To complete a heroic 5man, you need 3 dps, 1 tank and 1 healer.

I have combined gemming, gearing, rotation, spec, awareness and whatnot into a flat “skill” rating.

Assuming 30% “skill” is doable for dps in 5mans for dps, what would you assume would be required for tanks and healers to successfully complete a heroic 5man.

Would the 30% “skill” level still apply?

I’d say no, not even close. Tanks have a required defense level that must be obtained via gear, gems and enchants in order to complete a heroic 5-man. The average fresh 80 casual first time player cannot tank a heroic. It is not possible. I cannot speak for healers, because I do have any experience playing them.

Once the minimum defense is obtained, there still is a matter of properly executing a rotation to some degree to establish and maintain threat off of the healer. This is not that difficult, and most average players can probably do this. However, keeping enough threat to keep off of the 1k dps is slightly more difficult. Also, its safe to assume that the average fresh 80 will not assist properly and will pull aggro off of a tank with the same skill level. Therefore, the minimum skill level for tanks to be successful in 5-mans is significantly higher than that of dps. Knowledge of gearing, gemming, and enchants are required at a “Medium” level (assuming a easy-medium-hard-very hard-expert) difficulty scale.

Conclusion: Tanks HAVE to be better players than fresh level 80 casual first timer dps, or the 5-man will not be successful.

The problem is that the rewards are the same, regardless of what role you fill in a 5man, how good you are, and how well you perform. This perpetuates the shortage of tanks and healers, because as we previously established, the skill level of the average fresh casual 80 is very poor.

In essence, Blizzard created a system where the better players have to carry lesser skilled players. The skill of the average fresh level 80 could not complete a heroic 5-man without a better skilled player assisting. Most people, myself included, do not want to help strangers advance. I want to help the ones I care about get better, but I don’t want to be required to help the general population everytime I play. Blizzard now made this a requirement of tanks (and probably healers).

Arioch

Can’t argue.

But, having tanked our way through heroics with [player], I will say that it is possible for the tank to be of lower skill and the group still succeeds in a 5-man. It’s time-consuming and painful, but it is possible. So instead of saying that the tank HAS to be better, I’ll just say it’s greatly preferred and is a significant contributor to the success.

Having done DPS, a small bit of healing, and a smattering of tanking, I would say that tanking is the hardest of the three, followed by healing and then DPS.

That is of course, completely subjective and a statement like that in trade chat or a forum will immediately bring out the worst in the troll population.

But for me, that’s the order of difficulty. And looking at the general percentages of the population, I would imagine that even if the ranking is not true in terms of perceived difficulty, it’s true in terms of popularity. Yes, we need them in the ratio of 1-1-3 for a 5-man, but we seem to have them in the ratio of 1-3-200.

The problem with tanking and healing is it is largely dependent upon the skill (or at least awareness) of the other 4 members of the group. They also have more tools to “save the day” but those tools require more skill than just popping Vanish or Invisibility. I can heal a smart party like ours without too much difficulty. Add an idiot to the mix that’s standing in the fire and suddenly I’ll have to start making decisions about who lives and who dies. Because there will be a death, I could be labeled as a bad healer, because I couldn’t save stupid from himself.

The tank and the healer roles are the easiest to scrutinize (often incorrectly) and the hardest to look at objectively. HPS means nothing between healing classes and encounters. It’s entirely dependent on the damage that was coming in. TPS is important, but if the DPS does right, the TPS is far less important. DPS can be reasonably compared across similar classes in similar fights. The HP of the mobs is a known variable that can be calculated against.

I think new players should gravitate towards DPS classes, the learning curve is more gentle and if 1 DPS in a group screws up it generally is salvageable. Tanks or healers screwing up is usually not and then people get frustrated trying to tank or heal and leave the role to go pewpew.

BUT, the new player should be watching and learning. I can explain most fights in terms of the DPS role or tanking and even some healing because I have paid very close attention to what happens in the fight. This is what sets us apart from the casual players.

Thankfully, there are individuals like Tay that find DPS to be boring and will prefer to tank or heal. But the risk of burnout is much higher.

The current benefits to tanks and healers is that they are always in demand and virtually guaranteed raid spots or instant queues. Not much else. They do it because they like to or they get burnt.

Blizzard is not requiring that you help other players you don’t know. If you want Frost emblems (which is your choice), you need only complete a random dungeon. You can take 4 people you know and still get your emblems. No requirements to pug.

Now while I understand that you may not want to take the time to help everyone you meet, don’t you think it could behoove you to toss some advice now and again? That scrub could be the next applicant to our guild. If the population as a whole becomes more skilled, Blizzard can focus on tuning encounters to be harder again.

Dark/Soth

To clarify, when comparing the minimum skill level required to successfully complete any group objective in the game, the minimum skill required for tanks is higher then the comparable skill in dps. In that context, tanks have to be more skilled for success. Now, once everyone is beyond that minimum, the tanks can be of varying skill and success will still be achieved.

Success with [player] was due to him being at or around the minimum, and the other 4 of us compensating by playing above the minimum skill level for dps. We assisted the tank, we knew how to manage the aggro. These skills set us apart from the fresh 80 casual first time player. If us 4 played at [player]’s skill level, I do not believe we could have completed the instance. I also believe that if [player]’s skill had been any lower than it was, no amount of skill from us at that gear level would of compensated.

Good point about the instant queues. That is the reward for carrying people in random dungeons. I will try and appreciate that more.

Interesting point about the tanks and the healers being the easiest to scrutinize. Success or failure is largely dependent on the tanks and healers in 5-man groups. A good tank and healer can overcome 3 poor dps while 3 good dps cannot overcome a poor tank and healer. It leads into the next point of frustration with me.

If a dps performs at a 600-800 dps level, the encounters can still be completed and no one really cares. You earn your emblems, and you carry on with your day. If tanks and healers perform at an equivalent level, the encounters cannot be completed, and everyone suddenly cares and complains.

However, if a tank (me) complains that dps need to step up their game, the common response is “This is so easy, it doesn’t matter, just go, who cares”. The inequality and lack of responsibility is what frustrates me to no end. If a tank or healer is fail, he HAS to leave the group, or the group cannot succeed. The group as a whole will require the tank or healer to leave, or they themselves will leave. If the dps is fail, nobody cares as long as you get your emblems, and if you ask to remove the bad dps, you are often met with significant objection. DPS is not held accountable and is often coddled. If someone requests accountability of DPS at the 5man level, they are considered to be elitist jerks.

Arioch

But notice as soon as you move to the raid level, people do not consider you an elitist jerk for holding DPS accountable.

To 90% of the players (skilled or otherwise) heroics just aren’t worth getting worked up about.

Like Jong’s cost/benefit analysis on the situation, it’s just faster/easier/cheaper to get it done and over with instead of becoming emotionally involved and giving a rat’s hind end about it.

So in a funny twist, you’re a jerk for caring. =P

Dark/Soth

Too bad we can’t take this entire chain and make it into a podcast or a conversational blog post. There is good stuff in here.

Arioch

Who said I wasn’t planning on that? >.>

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26 comments on “So that’s what you do all day?

  1. Delerius says:

    “Who said I wasn’t planning on that?” Haha win.

    Emails, Guild chat conversations, yeah they make great blog posts.

    And I just read Euripedes’ post yesterday =P

    I guess that makes me competent of something. I’d rather be competent than socially insecure.

    Like

  2. zarigar says:

    “That is of course, completely subjective and a statement like that in trade chat or a forum will immediately bring out the worst in the troll population.”

    Why you always gotta be sayin’ de bad stuff about my people, mon?

    Like

  3. Rurjaos says:

    Dark is just trying to fight the woes (?) in its beginnings.
    If you totally screw up in a soccerleague, you get the bill! If you screw up in an instance, you just try again… and again… and again….
    The deserter-debuff should last longer but be decursablle by completing the instance on normal…
    Everything changes in a raiding environment and hits you even harder there. 1 week lockout!
    Got to PuG-tank ToCr10 yesterday, RL and some members with quite poor equipment but talking about “more than enough experience”.
    Ok.I tend to look at my rooster closer, if problems rise and as ToCr isn’t that hard…
    Beasts took a bit long, but ok. 2 DDs down…
    Jaraxxus went quite good, except legion flames around him every now and then. ^^
    But on the champs all the fun ended: the “more than enough experience”-RL pushed exciting 340DPS! No, there isn’t a zero missing. F*cking threehundretforty! Two more DDs below the tanks.
    I dont want anyone to be responsible for MY fun ingame. But I want them to learn (early), that they are capable of blocking fun of 4-24 people, if they try to hide in the masses.

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  4. Darraxus says:

    I agree with Dark as per usual. DPS is not really held accountable. If a group I am tanking for refuses to kick a 500 dps nub, I will leave and let them wait another 15 minutes for a tank.

    DPS is not held accountable. 1k dps is very bare minimum. And they have to be pretty bad. Every single toons that I have played as DPS as a fresh 80 has been able to break 2k no problem.

    Example of DPS not having to really pull their weight: Everyone gets killed on the Devourer of Souls fight except me and the healer. We take him down no problem. If the tank or healer die, it is probably going to be a wipe.

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  5. Orangeslice says:

    “A good tank and healer can overcome 3 poor dps while 3 good dps cannot overcome a poor tank and healer.”

    So so true… for the most a healer can heal thru stupid (although prob shouldnt). Good tank can hold aggro, and not let stupid die. (unless its me you can heal or DPS out of a paper bag lol)

    And btw Soth it’s on!!! If your pally is really named fanta. Orangeslice > all soda.

    Healer entering heroics (excluding ToC – that requires higher requirements for a healer)….a general rule of thumbs is 1500 SP minimum and 15k mana.

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  6. Tirael says:

    Except DPS ARE held accountable in raids. Boss enrage timers/boss mechanics that would overwhelm the raid (I.E. Rotface Mutilating Injection) push the dps to be the best. This is of course in raids and not in heroics.

    Now for heroics, there are no enrage timers, or many (if any at all) boss mechanics that will overwhelm you (now at least, in BC there were) or your group if you have craptastic dps and at least a decent tank/healer. This is where the flaw lies.

    What Soth said is true. In order to see this better, let’s assign actual skill levels to this: Nub (obvious), Nubling (knows where the action bars are), Decent (can actually click buttons), Seasoned (hits buttons faster), Veteran (knows what each button does), Savant (goes Plaid).

    For heroics, if all of your DPS are Nubling skill level, then your tank and healer would have to be at least Decent skill level or above. Why? Because they would need to know a little bit more about their class in order to make up for the lack of dps from the Nublings. If all of your DPS are Nub Skill level, then your tank/healer would need to be at least Seasoned Skill level in order to carry them through. Face pulls would abound in this group. If you DPS are all Veteran level, then the tank/healer level would have to be at least nubling level just so the bosses could be tanked/people would get heals.

    You see what I am getting at. Both are INVERSELY proportional to each other. As DPS skill level decreases, tank/healer level has to increase. Vice Versa.

    Transition into raids and everyone needs to be at least Decent for things like ToC 10/25. With current content (ICC), you need to have a good portion of your raid at the Seasoned level or you will be wiping on Saurafang for a LONG time.

    To follow on Soth, when my priest was 74, she was pulling 1200-1300 on boss fights in most regular instances. I have ran into dps with decent gear in heroics pulling a grand total of 800 dps on some stand still boss fights (and no, they weren’t just auto-attacking). Skill>gear. The thing is though, when you get to the point where your skill level is at least Seasoned or higher, your ONLY limiting factor will be gear. However, all the gear in the world will not make a Nub level player awesome.

    Some of you may be like, “Who in the eff is this Tirael guy? Who the eff does he think he is talking all this crap about this? ” At least those of you who care will. I will leave you with this: I have pulled 13.4k dps (yes, that’s 13,400 dps) on Twin Valk’s in ToCr 10. I will email Arioch a screenshot tonight when I get home so she can confirm. Had I uploaded this fight to World of Logs, it would put me in the top 100 dps in the world for that fight, #4 Unholy Dk. Guess what, I still only consider myself somewhere inbetween Seasoned and Veteran skill level. Sometimes even I go plaid. ;)

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  7. Tirael says:

    Now, to go into the tank side of things (yes I have a prot warrior, Paleteal – Mal’Ganis. Fyi my DK is Tirael – Mal’ganis). Tanking, comes up short on rewards. What fight in ICC is really hard on tanking? Deathwhisper? Tank switches are old. Festergut? Pop CDs and mash buttons for threat. Rotface? Kite a slime. Blood Princes? Nope. Grab orb for the Kele tank. Stand still and mash buttons for the Vel/Tal tank. The list goes on. Most fights are a stand there and take it mechanic. Usually the mechanics that actually affect the tanks affect the raid at the same time. Tanking in raids isn’t rewarding. With a Seasoned level tank, everything else comes down to healing/dps.

    Now go back to heroics. What in heroics really is hard for a tank? Grab mobs and AoE tank your way to bosses. Hell, just to make an instance hard, I pulled the ENITIRE gauntlet in CoS up to the Infinite Corrupter (the one that drops the drake) and tanked all of those mobs+the boss on my WARRIOR. It was still easy. Why? I had a metric buttton of dps in my group.

    All this is to say that, as long as your tank isn’t an idiot, everything in this game rewards recount watching and epeen stroking of the meters. Not much rewards tanks. Very few people say “Great job tanks on that Festergut fight. You really held it down.” They usually are saying, “Look at X raid member pulling 10k dps. That is hot”

    This in of itseld contributes to the reason why there are very few tanks in this game. That and the fact that it takes a special individual to want to stare at the groin of each different boss in a raid for hours on end, while the same boss is beating them in the face. Some day I will be paying for a psycologist retirement because of that statement.

    Short thing about healers. Healing is boring. If you don’t believe me, go try it. If you need practice, go to your local Chuck-E-Cheese and play Whack-O-Mole until you master it. Then, get on your healer and go heal 5 mans/raids. It is the same thing. Thank God for the Dreamwalker fight. Healers have needed something like that for a LONG time.

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    • Orangeslice says:

      I agree with everything you have said Tirael…up to this point….

      “Short thing about healers. Healing is boring. If you don’t believe me, go try it. If you need practice, go to your local Chuck-E-Cheese and play Whack-O-Mole until you master it. Then, get on your healer and go heal 5 mans/raids.”

      Healing is not easy…sure 5 mans are and depending on your gear other raids can be easy. Proper management of mana, cooldowns, and fight mechanics are important. Also which priorizing which spell are needed at a given time. You cannot expect just to spam GH on a tank and expect to be living in a Festergut fight. Or just use PoH on Saurfang. Or using Renew only for the Valkyrs.

      Healing is not boring….nothing gets the blood running faster for me then choosing which spell to use, when to use cooldown, trinkets, and who to heal when.

      Not trying to be offensive, but you could almost say tanking is easy….keep the mob in place…AoE tank…boom…burn things down. Switch targets as needed.

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    • Dark/Soth says:

      Ty (Ti?),

      If healing is easy, then tanking is even easier. Look at Festergut for example. All I have to do is stand still and keep threat. Well, that and cycle my cooldowns properly so I don’t get my face smashed in, and manage my anti-magic shell cooldown to mitigate the gas damage, especially when he is about to exhale it all. Oh, and stagger Icebound Fortitude, Vampiric Blood, and my trinkets to extend my life when Festergut has inhaled all the Blight and is whacking me for 20k every 2 seconds. But other then all that, its just like whack-a-mole.

      /sarcasm

      Ty, I think you know better then to oversimplify this stuff. Healing is not that easy.

      Like

  8. Tirael says:

    Healing is not like it was in BC. I guarantee you any healer now has at least 25% overhealing. In BC raiding, this was consider a fail healer. You downranked spells in order to conserve mana. Either way, I will explain my point.

    I never said it was “easy”. I said it was “boring”. Blizzard reduced it to whack-o-mole. I mean. Back in the day you had healbot downranking your spells. Now all you do is cast max rank spells. Of course you use different spells for different situations. The only fight I could even see it plausible to downrank your heals on would be ToGC 10/25 Anub P3.

    @Orange/Soth

    Again, I never said it was easy. I said it was boring. It is nowhere near as involved as it use to be. I will say that a healer being decisive about which spell to heal with is the difference between a decent healer and a veteran healer.

    @Soth

    Festergut 10 tanking is LAWLZ, but I outgear it. Also, if you go frost tank w/ acclimation, you can LOL through Festergut gas.

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    • Tirael says:

      You can blast me about me saying it is boring. I never said (nor will I ever say) it is easy. Boring ≠ Easy

      Like

    • Orangeslice says:

      I apologize then for assumming that you thought it was easy. The whack a mole anology made it seem that anyone could do it with no issues. But yes…too each their own. I dont think I could ever get excited playing a hunter.

      Like

    • For the Pie says:

      For me, tanking is stressful, because you know you do it wrong and people die, but healing is more stressful, mostly I think because I am newer to healing than tanking.

      Back in BC, BM huntering was boring, spam macro FTW. And if you didn’t have the macro, you had to go Plaid in order to do as much dps. Part of the reason I switched to Survival was to get past the snooze macro, and part to make myself required in raids.

      Huntering now, is probably less boring but it’s more whack a mole. Hit this, hit this until that first thing comes off CD, hit that again. I like the icehowl fight because now I get to have a reason to be a hunter instead of some other dps.

      I like being a hunter, I hope I always will. I am excited about Cat due to the changes, but I can see it also making being a hunter less fun.

      I do like that Blizz says bring the player not the class, but I think maybe they went too far. I’d like some more class reqs, not much, just some.

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  9. Dark/Soth says:

    Ty,

    I think I made the same connection to easy the Orangeslice did with the whack-a-mole comparison. Typically, one gets bored whacking the mole because it becomes trivial.

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  10. Tirael says:

    Well, in early WotLK (and still somewhat now), you rarely (imo) PROACTIVELY heal the tank/raid (unless you are a druid/holy priest). You REACTIVELY heal, similar to Whack-o-mole. You attempt to predict when damage is going to come, then “beat” the living shit out of the tank/raid with heals. The analogy to whack-o-mole refers to it’s style, not it’s difficulty. (Btw, go play Whack-o-mole. Guarantee it will seem hard ;))

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  11. llEulogy says:

    One thing I think you forgot to take into consideration in your argument is gear scaling. An early 70 is going to have more hit/crit than a fresh 80 in greens, as the ratings scale to level. Still pulling that dps at that level is much grood. Kudos, and keep it up.

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  12. Jasin says:

    I see a lot of arguements here about what is ‘easy’ and what is ‘boring’. However, I think its worth pointing out that ‘easy’ and ‘boring’ are both _subjective_ opinions. What one person finds easy or boring, another person might find exciting or difficult, and as such any argument about it is just your own speculative opinion. Some like to tank, some like to heal. Just because you personally find healing boring, does not make it fact. I personally find arcane mage extremely boring, and much prefer fire. Our lovely host Arioch, on the other hand, finds fire boring and arcane much more interesting. Neither is right or wrong, each person prefers their own thing.

    Tirael, in his overgeared uber-powered toon might casually say that tanking Festergut is easy and faceroll. However there are a lot of other people who still find it a very difficult and challenging encounter.

    Tirael, you raise some interesting points, but I had trouble reading your posts, as they were obscured by your massive epeen :)

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    • Tirael says:

      Yeah after re-reading my replies I realized they sounded a little too epeenish. I am sorry for that as that epeen does obscure my points a great deal. Basically, a tank will always have to be at least decent, until the dps far outgear a place. This is of course for heroics.

      Switch over to raids, and the tank has to be as good, if not better than his dps. Same with healers. Healing probably (imo) requires the MOST skill. I don’t want people to think my “whack-o-mole” analogy was a testament to healing being easy. Like I said before, it is more a reactive style of play than a proactive style of play.

      Healing in a raid environment has got to be stressful, especially in 10 man content. If you muck it up as a tank, you can be compensated for by your OT without too much of a backlash. If you muck it up as a healer, you stand the chance of overwhelming your other healers. If 1 tank dies, in most encounters, it doesn’t mean a wipe. If 1 healer dies, you are 1 man/woman healing 8 other targets…..If you wipe at this point, I could see how some people would feel like they let their raid down.

      Healers have a lot resting on their shoulders, and in my eyes, ARE THE MOST KEY ROLE IN ANY RAID. Without at least Decent healers, raids do NOT happen.

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  13. NIa says:

    Disc priest spec is about damage mitigation, not reaction. Knowing the fights and using spells and abilities to prevent the tank/dps from taking spike damage in the first place is what their designed for. It’s why they show poorly on Recount healing meters unless you look at Guessed Absorbs. So this type of healing is not particularly well-suited to the ‘whack-a-mole’ strategy previously discussed. (I cannot speak for other healing classes, I have only healed on my priest.)

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  14. Akiosama says:

    One thing I will say, getting back to the original e-mail chain above (not that I fully agree or disagree with what Tirael is saying – I get bored healing heroics and trash, but love healing boss fights, especially if things aren’t going swimmingly – and ICC has a lot of that for the groups I run with), I agree that while the minimum required skill for tanks and healers is generally inverse to the DPS’ skill levels (i.e. better DPS makes up for lesser tanks or healers), that generally only one of the two (a tank or a healer) can really be lower skilled than the rest of the group without causing significant risk to the group as a whole. In a situation where you have a newer or sub-par tank combined with a newer or sub-par healer, the instances tend to become considerably more difficult, in my opinion.

    My 2 yen,

    Akiosama

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  15. […] an email conversation with Dark/Soth that I shamelessly stole to be a post (yes, we still have these even if he’s not playing WoW any longer) […]

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